At 0:45 Our conversation picks up with Matty’s reservations about the catholic church he was connected to. Although he felt an aesthetic resonance, he began to be turned away by abortion politics and fundraising for priestly vestments, leading to disagreement/disconnect with rest of the congregation. “Once you start picking at one thread,” the rest starts unravelling; all kept “at a distance” by the aesthetics of his personal encounter with the church.
So tried a different Catholic church (4:30), where his daughter started asking questions about being a priest. That, plus some strong teaching about divorce (as he was then going through), led to a sense of alienation and lack of hope about inclusion in church–he anticipated prohibition and the communion table and the broader “limits of Catholic moral theology”. Didn’t know there are “liberal” parts of Catholic theology.
At 9:00 our conversation transitions, as, from one Sunday to the next, Matty crossed the street to the Anglican church (led by a woman!). He recounts his encounter with a dynamic woman vicar in an Anglican church. It offered a space where his daughter’s question (can I be a priest?) could receive a positive answer. In addition, the church had undergone a journey from traditional orthodoxy toward more robust inclusion along the lines of gender and sexuality. Also, there was a broader lay participation (lay readers, for example), offered a “levelling” of church involvement, liturgical and otherwise. It introduced a different kind of beauty–a relational beauty, in contrast to the aesthetic beauty of the Catholic liturgy. This offered an opportunity for him to “method act” the role of Jesus in a church play! (16:00) All of this displaced his “own drama” from the centre of his life.
Concurrent to this was his work in a conservative evangelical organization (18:30), an apologetics ministry (now experiencing well-publicized reckoning for improprieties of its founder). There was a contrasting form of engagement and piety and power dynamics in this organization than what he had encountered in his particular Anglican church. This was “out of step” with the direction of his faith journey outside of work. There was a kind of “intoxication” in the “certainty” he encountered there and the way it created community cohesion. Led to him going along with colleagues to a charismatic evangelical church nearby.
After the interlude, we pick up (at 28:00) the conversation again with Matty’s sense of disconnection with the evangelical church he’d been invited to. This led to a quick end of his participation (delayed by their great kids’ club). Around 30:00 I “flag” the way our faith journeys are shaped by both positive and negative encounters and how they resonate with our intuitions. I touch on my own departure from evangelicalism in terms of belief and behavior and belonging, and a sense that something wasn’t working in any of these areas of life.
At 35:15, Matty adds that the evangelical church was fairly homogenous. And at the same time, he was sensing that people don’t come to faith through apologetic arguments but through relationship and authenticity. But he wrestles with not defining things over-against evangelicalism. His positive experience (39:00) with Oasis church (and Steve Chalke, who married them) was helpful in this regard; it offered a style of worship and experience that was similar to charismatic, but it was radically inclusive and socially engaged–it reflected the wider community in which it was located.
He recounts meeting Noel and his work at Greenbelt festival (42:30). At Greenbelt he also encountered folks who had been hurt by conservative forms of Christianity. Noel was particularly helpful in thinking differently about hell and eternal damnation. Eventually, this led to an encounter with “shalom and shalom activism”, and connection with all things.
At 47:00 I comment on believing, behaving, and belonging and how those are engaged within evangelicalism. And we, in the Jesus-shalom movement, are trying to do is something different in these three areas, not only in content but also in style.
We end with my question to Matty (49:00) about his key question and concerns. His answer includes a possible call to ministry; what faith looks like in his local context; and deeper engagement with scripture.
References to:
Peter Enns’ The Bible for Normal People podcast
Christian Animism (website & Youtube channel)
Julian of Norwich (Wikipedia entry)
I really enjoyed this podcast, ( I’ve listened to both.) Both contributors are very eloquent, Matty in relating his interesting journey and Tim in his ability to question sensitively and offer suggestions showing both understanding and great perception. For me with an interest in contemplative prayer and Julian of Norwich, I found the help Matty had and I think is still finding from her Revelations of Divine Love, really important. It seems to me that whatever the changes and problems Matty has had to deal with, there is a constant thread and a sureness in the way Julian shares about the love of God, which I’m sure will remain a benefit to Matty and I’m hoping to myself too.
Thanks for the encouraging feedback, Jill. Glad you connected with Matty’s story and Julian of Norwich. Perhaps we need to get a reading group going!